Good invisible Web statistics program?

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

> It takes virtually no technical knowledge to download a site and upload
> it to another host. All it takes is a decent ftp program.

Not so. First I have to find another host, check out its credentials and
rate structure and policies and choose a plan and pay for it. That all
takes time.

I've had five ISPs over the last 11 years and every one of them was
fraught with problems.

> It takes a little more knowledge to change your name servers. You've at
> least got to read the directions.
>
> And the one our is conservative - figuring a slow line and reasonably
> large website. The last website I transferred was about 750MB and took
> under 10 minutes. Of course, it helped that I was able to transfer
> directly from server to server.
>
>> (The other day it took half an hour at least just to fix the problem
>> of me getting junk email every day. The ISP had to forward email from
>> one account to another to stop me from getting most of my jusk mail.
>> It took half an hour on the phone to sort it out. I couldn't log into
>> my site on my Mac because the link didn't work and had to keep going
>> back and forthe between the Mac and the PC while talking to the tech
>> guy on the pone. And the problem with the email had already been fixed
>> before but the emaill blocking system broke down for some reason and I
>> had phoned the ISP months ago and a different person had told me there
>> was nothing that could prevent me from being deluged with email and
>> that my email blocking system was set up properly.
>>
>
> That's a little different.
>
>> These things are NEVER simple and brief.
>>
>
> Neither are they hard nor lengthy.

It depends if you're a programmer type or not. I'm not and you are. It's
like a chef expecting everyone to find it basically easy to whip up
gourmet meals. Not everyone has the same intrinsic skills and I don't
have great intrinsic technical skills. That's a point that's very hard
to make you technical wizards understand.

For example, I have a friend who says that HTML is easy. I find it very
difficult to master because I'm not good at that type of thing. I'm an
artist, not a programmer, while my friend is an programmer, not an
artist, and he has very little artistic ability. Get it? (I know;
probably not.)

And besides, I've got 500 other tasks to do because I'm so busy. (Note
that I'm so busy that it took me five days to get around to answering
your message.) Changing Web hosts is not even in the top 400 items on my
to-do list.

Also, you guys keep displaying the "grass is greener on the other side
of the hill mentality". I wanted a Web site tracker so you recommended
the drastic step of cancelling my hosting service and finding another.

It's like if you get marriage counselling and the first piece of advice
the counsellor has is to get a divorce.

No need for drastic action; I tried Google Analytics since starting this
thread and it's fantastic! And I didn't have to go to the drastic step
of changing any hosts to do it!

I of course prefer the simple approach first to problem-solving. No need
to throw out the baby with the bath water, as the saying goes!

>> Another example: a few months ago I set up a bank loan at my bank.
>> During a meeting at the bank this week, my banker told me she had no
>> record of whether or not there was a guarantor listed on the forms
>> concerning my investment. To try to get the infomation, I'll have to
>> set up another meeting at the bank with another banker.
>>
>
> And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
>
>> One important lesson I've learned in life is that nothing is as simple
>> as it first appears, and you can't convince me otherwise because I
>> have 50 years of life experiences as proof.

The above paragraph answers your question about the tea in China.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, I have a few more years than you. But unlike you, I have
> found many things which are both quick and simple.
>
>> And I've often been told by Internet folks how easy it is to do this
>> or that, but it seldom is as easy as claimed. Case in point: I was
>> recommended Site Stats as a good, invisible site tracker. Well, I
>> tried it, and it's NOT invisible, even though I pasted the code in
>> twice and I had to fiddle with the code to try to fix it, to no avail.)
>>
>
> There's a lot out there which is easy on the internet. But most things
> require a basic level of knowledge, also.
>
> As for Site Stats, I'm not familiar with it. But it doesn't see like it
> would be too hard to insert two lines of html at the end of the page.

What seems easy is often more involved that is first seems.

>> It will take longer for
>>
>>> everything to propagate throughout the net.
>>>
>>> I admit raw statistics themselves are worthless. But if you have
>>> them, you can run virtually any statistics analysis program to get
>>> the graphs you want.
>>
>>
>> I would have no idea of how to do that, and wouldn't have the time or
>> inclinationto learn it. I want pre-packaged stats that don't need any
>> work on my part to assemble.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> How about search for analysis programs on the internet and look at them?
>
> Or maybe you should pay someone to do the work for you. You don't need
> a ton of knowledge to operate a website, but you need some. Just like
> you don't need to be an automotive designer to operate a car, but you
> need some knowledge.

I found a great tracker in the meantime: Google Analytics. It's
comprehensive and it's free! I'm blown away by it! It's way better than
Go Stats and Site Stats!

(And people say don't get hung up on site stats, but I find it've
motivational; I'm getting about 35,000 hits on my site annually,
according to Google Analytics, and people are spending an average of 20
minutes looking at my site, so i'm motivated to keep improving my site
to keep 'em coming back for more!)

Yahoo! (I mean Google!)

Thanks, guys!

Robert

Robert Montgomery wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>> It takes virtually no technical knowledge to download a site and
>> upload it to another host. All it takes is a decent ftp program.
>
> Not so. First I have to find another host, check out its credentials and
> rate structure and policies and choose a plan and pay for it. That all
> takes time.
>
> I've had five ISPs over the last 11 years and every one of them was
> fraught with problems.
>

Yes, I've had problems with hosting companies before, also. Even the
better ones seem to have problems at times.

But I've also found good hosting and good support isn't going to be
found for $2.99/mo.

>> It takes a little more knowledge to change your name servers. You've
>> at least got to read the directions.
>>
>> And the one our is conservative - figuring a slow line and reasonably
>> large website. The last website I transferred was about 750MB and
>> took under 10 minutes. Of course, it helped that I was able to
>> transfer directly from server to server.
>>
>>> (The other day it took half an hour at least just to fix the problem
>>> of me getting junk email every day. The ISP had to forward email from
>>> one account to another to stop me from getting most of my jusk mail.
>>> It took half an hour on the phone to sort it out. I couldn't log into
>>> my site on my Mac because the link didn't work and had to keep going
>>> back and forthe between the Mac and the PC while talking to the tech
>>> guy on the pone. And the problem with the email had already been
>>> fixed before but the emaill blocking system broke down for some
>>> reason and I had phoned the ISP months ago and a different person had
>>> told me there was nothing that could prevent me from being deluged
>>> with email and that my email blocking system was set up properly.
>>>
>>
>> That's a little different.
>>
>>> These things are NEVER simple and brief.
>>>
>>
>> Neither are they hard nor lengthy.
>
> It depends if you're a programmer type or not. I'm not and you are. It's
> like a chef expecting everyone to find it basically easy to whip up
> gourmet meals. Not everyone has the same intrinsic skills and I don't
> have great intrinsic technical skills. That's a point that's very hard
> to make you technical wizards understand.
>

You don't have to be a "programmer type". I know several good
webmasters who aren't programmers - they are graphic designers. When
they need programming, they sub it out. And they handle domain names
and the other administrative work quite well. It's not hard - nowadays
everything is menu driven. You just need to pay attention to the details.

> For example, I have a friend who says that HTML is easy. I find it very
> difficult to master because I'm not good at that type of thing. I'm an
> artist, not a programmer, while my friend is an programmer, not an
> artist, and he has very little artistic ability. Get it? (I know;
> probably not.)
>

No problem, I'm not an artist - I can't draw a straight line with a
ruler. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

> And besides, I've got 500 other tasks to do because I'm so busy. (Note
> that I'm so busy that it took me five days to get around to answering
> your message.) Changing Web hosts is not even in the top 400 items on my
> to-do list.
>

Yep, I'm busy also, but I still find time to maintain my domains.

> Also, you guys keep displaying the "grass is greener on the other side
> of the hill mentality". I wanted a Web site tracker so you recommended
> the drastic step of cancelling my hosting service and finding another.
>

If your hosting company can't or won't give you what you need, then you
should change hosts. Others will.

> It's like if you get marriage counselling and the first piece of advice
> the counsellor has is to get a divorce.
>

If your spouse can't or won't give you what you need, and you've tried
working it out, that may be your only choice.

> No need for drastic action; I tried Google Analytics since starting this
> thread and it's fantastic! And I didn't have to go to the drastic step
> of changing any hosts to do it!
>

Nothing drastic about changing hosts. I'm getting ready to do that for
another site soon - because they need some features not available on the
current host.

> I of course prefer the simple approach first to problem-solving. No need
> to throw out the baby with the bath water, as the saying goes!
>

No, but you've already said your host can't or won't give you what you need.

>>> Another example: a few months ago I set up a bank loan at my bank.
>>> During a meeting at the bank this week, my banker told me she had no
>>> record of whether or not there was a guarantor listed on the forms
>>> concerning my investment. To try to get the infomation, I'll have to
>>> set up another meeting at the bank with another banker.
>>>
>>
>> And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
>>
>>> One important lesson I've learned in life is that nothing is as
>>> simple as it first appears, and you can't convince me otherwise
>>> because I have 50 years of life experiences as proof.
>
> The above paragraph answers your question about the tea in China.

Not at all. Just something completely unrelated.

>>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, I have a few more years than you. But unlike you, I
>> have found many things which are both quick and simple.
>>
>>> And I've often been told by Internet folks how easy it is to do this
>>> or that, but it seldom is as easy as claimed. Case in point: I was
>>> recommended Site Stats as a good, invisible site tracker. Well, I
>>> tried it, and it's NOT invisible, even though I pasted the code in
>>> twice and I had to fiddle with the code to try to fix it, to no avail.)
>>>
>>
>> There's a lot out there which is easy on the internet. But most
>> things require a basic level of knowledge, also.
>>
>> As for Site Stats, I'm not familiar with it. But it doesn't see like
>> it would be too hard to insert two lines of html at the end of the page.
>
> What seems easy is often more involved that is first seems.
>

Often times only if you make it so. You've already convinced yourself
this is hard and time consuming. So it will be. I've convinced myself
it's quick and easy. And for me, it is.

>>> It will take longer for
>>>
>>>> everything to propagate throughout the net.
>>>>
>>>> I admit raw statistics themselves are worthless. But if you have
>>>> them, you can run virtually any statistics analysis program to get
>>>> the graphs you want.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would have no idea of how to do that, and wouldn't have the time or
>>> inclinationto learn it. I want pre-packaged stats that don't need any
>>> work on my part to assemble.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>
>> How about search for analysis programs on the internet and look at them?
>>
>> Or maybe you should pay someone to do the work for you. You don't
>> need a ton of knowledge to operate a website, but you need some. Just
>> like you don't need to be an automotive designer to operate a car, but
>> you need some knowledge.
>
> I found a great tracker in the meantime: Google Analytics. It's
> comprehensive and it's free! I'm blown away by it! It's way better than
> Go Stats and Site Stats!
>

OK, if that works for you, great.

> (And people say don't get hung up on site stats, but I find it've
> motivational; I'm getting about 35,000 hits on my site annually,
> according to Google Analytics, and people are spending an average of 20
> minutes looking at my site, so i'm motivated to keep improving my site
> to keep 'em coming back for more!)
>

Not that those stats mean anything. Because they don't.

It's less than 100 hits per day. And as each page request, image, etc.
counts as a hit, it could be as little as one person viewing 5-6 pages.
Or 5-6 people displaying one page.

As for 20 minutes average - impossible to tell. They may close their
browser. No analytic program will tell that. They may display a page,
take a coffee break or answer the phone and come back in half an hour
(or more) and spend 5 seconds on your page before moving on.

Or any of a hundred other things.

> Yahoo! (I mean Google!)
>
> Thanks, guys!
>
> Robert


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

> Robert Montgomery wrote:
>
>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>
>>> It takes virtually no technical knowledge to download a site and
>>> upload it to another host. All it takes is a decent ftp program.
>>
>>
>> Not so. First I have to find another host, check out its credentials
>> and rate structure and policies and choose a plan and pay for it. That
>> all takes time.
>>
>> I've had five ISPs over the last 11 years and every one of them was
>> fraught with problems.
>>
>
> Yes, I've had problems with hosting companies before, also. Even the
> better ones seem to have problems at times.
>
> But I've also found good hosting and good support isn't going to be
> found for $2.99/mo.

As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, I'm paying more for my Web services
than the cheapest and I'm willing to pay a bit more than the cheapest
because the domain hosting, site hosting, email and phone services are
all managed together and I get one bill every month for all those
combined services.

>>> It takes a little more knowledge to change your name servers. You've
>>> at least got to read the directions.
>>>
>>> And the one our is conservative - figuring a slow line and reasonably
>>> large website. The last website I transferred was about 750MB and
>>> took under 10 minutes. Of course, it helped that I was able to
>>> transfer directly from server to server.
>>>
>>>> (The other day it took half an hour at least just to fix the problem
>>>> of me getting junk email every day. The ISP had to forward email
>>>> from one account to another to stop me from getting most of my jusk
>>>> mail. It took half an hour on the phone to sort it out. I couldn't
>>>> log into my site on my Mac because the link didn't work and had to
>>>> keep going back and forthe between the Mac and the PC while talking
>>>> to the tech guy on the pone. And the problem with the email had
>>>> already been fixed before but the emaill blocking system broke down
>>>> for some reason and I had phoned the ISP months ago and a different
>>>> person had told me there was nothing that could prevent me from
>>>> being deluged with email and that my email blocking system was set
>>>> up properly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's a little different.
>>>
>>>> These things are NEVER simple and brief.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Neither are they hard nor lengthy.
>>
>>
>> It depends if you're a programmer type or not. I'm not and you are.
>> It's like a chef expecting everyone to find it basically easy to whip
>> up gourmet meals. Not everyone has the same intrinsic skills and I
>> don't have great intrinsic technical skills. That's a point that's
>> very hard to make you technical wizards understand.
>>
>
> You don't have to be a "programmer type". I know several good
> webmasters who aren't programmers - they are graphic designers. When
> they need programming, they sub it out. And they handle domain names
> and the other administrative work quite well. It's not hard - nowadays
> everything is menu driven. You just need to pay attention to the details.
>
>> For example, I have a friend who says that HTML is easy. I find it
>> very difficult to master because I'm not good at that type of thing.
>> I'm an artist, not a programmer, while my friend is an programmer, not
>> an artist, and he has very little artistic ability. Get it? (I know;
>> probably not.)
>>
>
> No problem, I'm not an artist - I can't draw a straight line with a
> ruler. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

Yeah, but you're still telling me that changing Web hosts is easy for me
so you still don't get it.
>
>> And besides, I've got 500 other tasks to do because I'm so busy. (Note
>> that I'm so busy that it took me five days to get around to answering
>> your message.) Changing Web hosts is not even in the top 400 items on
>> my to-do list.
>>
>
> Yep, I'm busy also, but I still find time to maintain my domains.

I also am maintaing my domains. But I don't see the point of switching
at the first sign of a problem. If I did that, I'd be switching hosts
every week.
>
>> Also, you guys keep displaying the "grass is greener on the other side
>> of the hill mentality". I wanted a Web site tracker so you recommended
>> the drastic step of cancelling my hosting service and finding another.
>>
>
> If your hosting company can't or won't give you what you need, then you
> should change hosts. Others will.
>
>> It's like if you get marriage counselling and the first piece of
>> advice the counsellor has is to get a divorce.
>>
>
> If your spouse can't or won't give you what you need, and you've tried
> working it out, that may be your only choice.

It's not my only choice and as I pointed out already, Web logs are not
suited to me because it's just raw data; i want nicely designed graphics
that I can easily understand, like the bar charts and pie charts in
Google Analytics, which i'm now happily accessing every day.
>
>> No need for drastic action; I tried Google Analytics since starting
>> this thread and it's fantastic! And I didn't have to go to the drastic
>> step of changing any hosts to do it!
>>
>
> Nothing drastic about changing hosts. I'm getting ready to do that for
> another site soon - because they need some features not available on the
> current host.
>
>> I of course prefer the simple approach first to problem-solving. No
>> need to throw out the baby with the bath water, as the saying goes!
>>
>
> No, but you've already said your host can't or won't give you what you
> need.

But then I corrected that because I got updated info from the ISP since
the last time I checked a couple of years ago. I CAN now get my Web
logs, but I'd have to switch to another platform/server/package with the
ISP and would have to change name servers and wouldn't be able to get my
phone bill combines with my Net bill, and all that work would be just as
much work as changing Web hosts anyway.
>
>>>> Another example: a few months ago I set up a bank loan at my bank.
>>>> During a meeting at the bank this week, my banker told me she had no
>>>> record of whether or not there was a guarantor listed on the forms
>>>> concerning my investment. To try to get the infomation, I'll have to
>>>> set up another meeting at the bank with another banker.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
>>>
>>>> One important lesson I've learned in life is that nothing is as
>>>> simple as it first appears, and you can't convince me otherwise
>>>> because I have 50 years of life experiences as proof.
>>
>>
>> The above paragraph answers your question about the tea in China.
>
>
> Not at all. Just something completely unrelated.

Not true. What I meant was that tasks that may seem to be simple at
first usually turn out to be more work than expected. That'w why
professional pad their invoices with about 10 to 50 percent extra – for
the unexpected problems that usually crop up in any given job.

as cha

>>> Unfortunately, I have a few more years than you. But unlike you, I
>>> have found many things which are both quick and simple.
>>>
>>>> And I've often been told by Internet folks how easy it is to do this
>>>> or that, but it seldom is as easy as claimed. Case in point: I was
>>>> recommended Site Stats as a good, invisible site tracker. Well, I
>>>> tried it, and it's NOT invisible, even though I pasted the code in
>>>> twice and I had to fiddle with the code to try to fix it, to no avail.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> There's a lot out there which is easy on the internet. But most
>>> things require a basic level of knowledge, also.
>>>
>>> As for Site Stats, I'm not familiar with it. But it doesn't see like
>>> it would be too hard to insert two lines of html at the end of the page.
>>
>>
>> What seems easy is often more involved that is first seems.
>>
>
> Often times only if you make it so. You've already convinced yourself
> this is hard and time consuming. So it will be. I've convinced myself
> it's quick and easy. And for me, it is.

It doesn't matter what i believe because I don't have the best technical
skills and that's just the way it is. You may believe that you could
become a successful astronaut or fighter pilot, but you probably don't
have what it takes because not everyone has the same innate skills.

(I think if I reworded this another 10,000 different ways, you still
wouldn't understand. It's strange that prorammer types can be brilliant
at technical things, yet have the intelligence of a retarted
five-year-old at when it understadning this topic of empathy.)

It's like all the recommendations I've had from newsgroups to 'just'
upgrade this and that. It's never 'just'; every upgrade of software or
hardware is always fraught with problems and causes a cascade of other
problems. For example, I jsut had to spend a thousand dollars on a new
printer as a result of using Indesign instead of Xpress, which is a
result of upgrading my OS, which is a result of recommendations I
followed six months ago to 'just' upgrade my OS and it would be a cinch,
or so thay claimed.

It's like if I told you it would be easy for you to paint a great picture.

>>>> It will take longer for
>>>>
>>>>> everything to propagate throughout the net.
>>>>>
>>>>> I admit raw statistics themselves are worthless. But if you have
>>>>> them, you can run virtually any statistics analysis program to get
>>>>> the graphs you want.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would have no idea of how to do that, and wouldn't have the time
>>>> or inclinationto learn it. I want pre-packaged stats that don't need
>>>> any work on my part to assemble.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>
>>> How about search for analysis programs on the internet and look at them?
>>>
>>> Or maybe you should pay someone to do the work for you. You don't
>>> need a ton of knowledge to operate a website, but you need some.
>>> Just like you don't need to be an automotive designer to operate a
>>> car, but you need some knowledge.
>>
>>
>> I found a great tracker in the meantime: Google Analytics. It's
>> comprehensive and it's free! I'm blown away by it! It's way better
>> than Go Stats and Site Stats!
>>
>
> OK, if that works for you, great.
>
>> (And people say don't get hung up on site stats, but I find it've
>> motivational; I'm getting about 35,000 hits on my site annually,
>> according to Google Analytics, and people are spending an average of
>> 20 minutes looking at my site, so i'm motivated to keep improving my
>> site to keep 'em coming back for more!)
>>
>
> Not that those stats mean anything. Because they don't.
>
> It's less than 100 hits per day. And as each page request, image, etc.
> counts as a hit, it could be as little as one person viewing 5-6 pages.
> Or 5-6 people displaying one page.

No; it's about seven people a day, which is about 2,500 per year, which
is 25,000 people in ten years, and a lot of the viewers have come back
to the site already in the first five days I've been tracking it, and my
Web site is going to keep improving, which means I'll get more and more
traffic. The stats show which visitors are unique and which arenn't, and
I've blocked my own IP address from being counted.
>
> As for 20 minutes average - impossible to tell. They may close their
> browser. No analytic program will tell that. They may display a page,
> take a coffee break or answer the phone and come back in half an hour
> (or more) and spend 5 seconds on your page before moving on.

Well, yes, that occurred to me to, but the rest of the stats are pretty
accurate, I think.

Robert

Robert Montgomery wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>> Robert Montgomery wrote:
>>
>>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>
>>>> It takes virtually no technical knowledge to download a site and
>>>> upload it to another host. All it takes is a decent ftp program.
>>>
>>>
>>> Not so. First I have to find another host, check out its credentials
>>> and rate structure and policies and choose a plan and pay for it.
>>> That all takes time.
>>>
>>> I've had five ISPs over the last 11 years and every one of them was
>>> fraught with problems.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I've had problems with hosting companies before, also. Even the
>> better ones seem to have problems at times.
>>
>> But I've also found good hosting and good support isn't going to be
>> found for $2.99/mo.
>
> As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, I'm paying more for my Web services
> than the cheapest and I'm willing to pay a bit more than the cheapest
> because the domain hosting, site hosting, email and phone services are
> all managed together and I get one bill every month for all those
> combined services.
>

More expensive does not necessarily mean better quality. But cheaper
rates generally means lower quality.

>>>> It takes a little more knowledge to change your name servers.
>>>> You've at least got to read the directions.
>>>>
>>>> And the one our is conservative - figuring a slow line and
>>>> reasonably large website. The last website I transferred was about
>>>> 750MB and took under 10 minutes. Of course, it helped that I was
>>>> able to transfer directly from server to server.
>>>>
>>>>> (The other day it took half an hour at least just to fix the
>>>>> problem of me getting junk email every day. The ISP had to forward
>>>>> email from one account to another to stop me from getting most of
>>>>> my jusk mail. It took half an hour on the phone to sort it out. I
>>>>> couldn't log into my site on my Mac because the link didn't work
>>>>> and had to keep going back and forthe between the Mac and the PC
>>>>> while talking to the tech guy on the pone. And the problem with the
>>>>> email had already been fixed before but the emaill blocking system
>>>>> broke down for some reason and I had phoned the ISP months ago and
>>>>> a different person had told me there was nothing that could prevent
>>>>> me from being deluged with email and that my email blocking system
>>>>> was set up properly.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a little different.
>>>>
>>>>> These things are NEVER simple and brief.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Neither are they hard nor lengthy.
>>>
>>>
>>> It depends if you're a programmer type or not. I'm not and you are.
>>> It's like a chef expecting everyone to find it basically easy to whip
>>> up gourmet meals. Not everyone has the same intrinsic skills and I
>>> don't have great intrinsic technical skills. That's a point that's
>>> very hard to make you technical wizards understand.
>>>
>>
>> You don't have to be a "programmer type". I know several good
>> webmasters who aren't programmers - they are graphic designers. When
>> they need programming, they sub it out. And they handle domain names
>> and the other administrative work quite well. It's not hard -
>> nowadays everything is menu driven. You just need to pay attention to
>> the details.
>>
>>> For example, I have a friend who says that HTML is easy. I find it
>>> very difficult to master because I'm not good at that type of thing.
>>> I'm an artist, not a programmer, while my friend is an programmer,
>>> not an artist, and he has very little artistic ability. Get it? (I
>>> know; probably not.)
>>>
>>
>> No problem, I'm not an artist - I can't draw a straight line with a
>> ruler. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.
>
> Yeah, but you're still telling me that changing Web hosts is easy for me
> so you still don't get it.

Oh, I get it all right. You've convinced yourself how hard it is, so it
is hard.

>>
>>> And besides, I've got 500 other tasks to do because I'm so busy.
>>> (Note that I'm so busy that it took me five days to get around to
>>> answering your message.) Changing Web hosts is not even in the top
>>> 400 items on my to-do list.
>>>
>>
>> Yep, I'm busy also, but I still find time to maintain my domains.
>
> I also am maintaing my domains. But I don't see the point of switching
> at the first sign of a problem. If I did that, I'd be switching hosts
> every week.

It depends on the problem - and how your hosting company helps you with
a solution. For instance, I just had a problem when upgrading one of my
Debian servers. I had heavily customized it, and after the upgrade I
couldn't get into it even for a command line prompt. But my hosting
company was very helpful in fixing it so I could get in.

However, if they had been unwilling/unable to do that, I would be
looking for a new hosting company.

>>
>>> Also, you guys keep displaying the "grass is greener on the other
>>> side of the hill mentality". I wanted a Web site tracker so you
>>> recommended the drastic step of cancelling my hosting service and
>>> finding another.
>>>
>>
>> If your hosting company can't or won't give you what you need, then
>> you should change hosts. Others will.
>>
>>> It's like if you get marriage counselling and the first piece of
>>> advice the counsellor has is to get a divorce.
>>>
>>
>> If your spouse can't or won't give you what you need, and you've tried
>> working it out, that may be your only choice.
>
> It's not my only choice and as I pointed out already, Web logs are not
> suited to me because it's just raw data; i want nicely designed graphics
> that I can easily understand, like the bar charts and pie charts in
> Google Analytics, which i'm now happily accessing every day.

No, you always have choices. You have to make the best one.

>>
>>> No need for drastic action; I tried Google Analytics since starting
>>> this thread and it's fantastic! And I didn't have to go to the
>>> drastic step of changing any hosts to do it!
>>>
>>
>> Nothing drastic about changing hosts. I'm getting ready to do that
>> for another site soon - because they need some features not available
>> on the current host.
>>
>>> I of course prefer the simple approach first to problem-solving. No
>>> need to throw out the baby with the bath water, as the saying goes!
>>>
>>
>> No, but you've already said your host can't or won't give you what you
>> need.
>
> But then I corrected that because I got updated info from the ISP since
> the last time I checked a couple of years ago. I CAN now get my Web
> logs, but I'd have to switch to another platform/server/package with the
> ISP and would have to change name servers and wouldn't be able to get my
> phone bill combines with my Net bill, and all that work would be just as
> much work as changing Web hosts anyway.

That's good. But I don't worry about having my phone bill combined with
my net bill. They come separate. My hosting company bills my credit
card semi-annually and I don't worry about it.

>>
>>>>> Another example: a few months ago I set up a bank loan at my bank.
>>>>> During a meeting at the bank this week, my banker told me she had
>>>>> no record of whether or not there was a guarantor listed on the
>>>>> forms concerning my investment. To try to get the infomation, I'll
>>>>> have to set up another meeting at the bank with another banker.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
>>>>
>>>>> One important lesson I've learned in life is that nothing is as
>>>>> simple as it first appears, and you can't convince me otherwise
>>>>> because I have 50 years of life experiences as proof.
>>>
>>>
>>> The above paragraph answers your question about the tea in China.
>>
>>
>> Not at all. Just something completely unrelated.
>
> Not true. What I meant was that tasks that may seem to be simple at
> first usually turn out to be more work than expected. That'w why
> professional pad their invoices with about 10 to 50 percent extra – for
> the unexpected problems that usually crop up in any given job.
>

Yep, completely unrelated. And they are more work if you expect them to
be more work. And as a professional, I do NOT pad my invoices. Neither
do my doctor, my attorney, my CPA...

> as cha
>
>>>> Unfortunately, I have a few more years than you. But unlike you, I
>>>> have found many things which are both quick and simple.
>>>>
>>>>> And I've often been told by Internet folks how easy it is to do
>>>>> this or that, but it seldom is as easy as claimed. Case in point: I
>>>>> was recommended Site Stats as a good, invisible site tracker. Well,
>>>>> I tried it, and it's NOT invisible, even though I pasted the code
>>>>> in twice and I had to fiddle with the code to try to fix it, to no
>>>>> avail.)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There's a lot out there which is easy on the internet. But most
>>>> things require a basic level of knowledge, also.
>>>>
>>>> As for Site Stats, I'm not familiar with it. But it doesn't see
>>>> like it would be too hard to insert two lines of html at the end of
>>>> the page.
>>>
>>>
>>> What seems easy is often more involved that is first seems.
>>>
>>
>> Often times only if you make it so. You've already convinced yourself
>> this is hard and time consuming. So it will be. I've convinced
>> myself it's quick and easy. And for me, it is.
>
> It doesn't matter what i believe because I don't have the best technical
> skills and that's just the way it is. You may believe that you could
> become a successful astronaut or fighter pilot, but you probably don't
> have what it takes because not everyone has the same innate skills.
>

Yes, it matters what you believe. Because that's the way it will be for
you.

Don't know about astronaut - but I am a pilot, and have taken acrobatic
training. I think I could be a fighter pilot. But my eyesight
prevented me from becoming one.

> (I think if I reworded this another 10,000 different ways, you still
> wouldn't understand. It's strange that prorammer types can be brilliant
> at technical things, yet have the intelligence of a retarted
> five-year-old at when it understadning this topic of empathy.)
>

The same can be said for artists. Or maybe they have empathy, but they
make everything non-artistically related much more difficult than it is.

> It's like all the recommendations I've had from newsgroups to 'just'
> upgrade this and that. It's never 'just'; every upgrade of software or
> hardware is always fraught with problems and causes a cascade of other
> problems. For example, I jsut had to spend a thousand dollars on a new
> printer as a result of using Indesign instead of Xpress, which is a
> result of upgrading my OS, which is a result of recommendations I
> followed six months ago to 'just' upgrade my OS and it would be a cinch,
> or so thay claimed.
>

They aren't if you do your homework. Unfortunately, as above, I didn't
do ALL my homework. And I do admit it was my fault. But if it were my
customer's domain (instead of mine), I wouldn't have charged extra for
my error.

> It's like if I told you it would be easy for you to paint a great picture.
>

That's fine for you. And if you were painting by numbers, I can agree it
would be easy. Changing domain name servers, etc. is just like painting
by numbers. And even I can do that.

>>>>> It will take longer for
>>>>>
>>>>>> everything to propagate throughout the net.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I admit raw statistics themselves are worthless. But if you have
>>>>>> them, you can run virtually any statistics analysis program to get
>>>>>> the graphs you want.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would have no idea of how to do that, and wouldn't have the time
>>>>> or inclinationto learn it. I want pre-packaged stats that don't
>>>>> need any work on my part to assemble.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How about search for analysis programs on the internet and look at
>>>> them?
>>>>
>>>> Or maybe you should pay someone to do the work for you. You don't
>>>> need a ton of knowledge to operate a website, but you need some.
>>>> Just like you don't need to be an automotive designer to operate a
>>>> car, but you need some knowledge.
>>>
>>>
>>> I found a great tracker in the meantime: Google Analytics. It's
>>> comprehensive and it's free! I'm blown away by it! It's way better
>>> than Go Stats and Site Stats!
>>>
>>
>> OK, if that works for you, great.
>>
>>> (And people say don't get hung up on site stats, but I find it've
>>> motivational; I'm getting about 35,000 hits on my site annually,
>>> according to Google Analytics, and people are spending an average of
>>> 20 minutes looking at my site, so i'm motivated to keep improving my
>>> site to keep 'em coming back for more!)
>>>
>>
>> Not that those stats mean anything. Because they don't.
>>
>> It's less than 100 hits per day. And as each page request, image,
>> etc. counts as a hit, it could be as little as one person viewing 5-6
>> pages. Or 5-6 people displaying one page.
>
> No; it's about seven people a day, which is about 2,500 per year, which
> is 25,000 people in ten years, and a lot of the viewers have come back
> to the site already in the first five days I've been tracking it, and my
> Web site is going to keep improving, which means I'll get more and more
> traffic. The stats show which visitors are unique and which arenn't, and
> I've blocked my own IP address from being counted.

No, it's about 7 HITS a day. You don't know if it's seven different
people or one person checking seven pages.

>>
>> As for 20 minutes average - impossible to tell. They may close their
>> browser. No analytic program will tell that. They may display a
>> page, take a coffee break or answer the phone and come back in half an
>> hour (or more) and spend 5 seconds on your page before moving on.
>
> Well, yes, that occurred to me to, but the rest of the stats are pretty
> accurate, I think.

And why do you think that? No one experienced in stats thinks so.

>
> Robert


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================