Making an RPG

"Thrasher" <spectre911@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jv64jv8fqeso7d01k1b1ute4bj4vqhp02i@4ax.com...
> On 6 Aug 2003 22:07:00 -0700, anarchrosis@yahoo.com (anarchrosis)
> wrote:
>
> >The problem - and this is common for creative types - is that I suck
> >at programming.
>
>
> The "problem" is that you think programmers aren't creative.
> Programming is more art than science and the best computer games there
> have ever been were designed by the same people who programmed them.
> The job title of "Designer" didn't even exist until about 5 years ago
> - and the games have been garbage since then. A programming genius
> *is* a creative genius, it's inherently a creative endeaver. Such a
> person is a known quantity. Somebody with a marketting or business
> degree who thinks they have great game ideas is NOT a known quantity,
> and if the quality of games we've been getting lately is any
> indication, most of them are all talk.

While I believe great game programmers are by definition creative I think
it's important to be very specific in the different types of creativity
(they cannot be masters of ALL the types of creativity needed to make a
truly great game). I've yet to play a game that has the same brilliance of
an excellent book or film for example. Most games offer stories with weak
dialogue and predictable plots. There is very little evidence of creative
genius on the story side in gaming.

--
Joe M.

In article <3PidnTM5krBulK6iXTWJkg@comcast.com>, "Joe M." <NoEmail4Joe@spamfree.com> wrote:
>While I believe great game programmers are by definition creative I think
>it's important to be very specific in the different types of creativity
>(they cannot be masters of ALL the types of creativity needed to make a
>truly great game). I've yet to play a game that has the same brilliance of
>an excellent book or film for example. Most games offer stories with weak
>dialogue and predictable plots. There is very little evidence of creative
>genius on the story side in gaming.

It's idiotic to look for story of this order, because in a game the
player has a huge input into creating the story. It must therefore be
expected that the creativity in the story sphere will be of a very
'ordinary' nature.

I haven't ever seen a book that implements a Civilisation-like strategy
game either. Stupid uncreative book authors...

To have a book-like story in a game will require changing the nature of
the game to a much more linear and railroaded style than most players
will be prepared to accept. There's nothing wrong with that - but you
have to accept that the more story you include, the more non-linearity
you have to dump.

Gerry Quinn
--
http://bindweed.com
Screensavers and Games for Windows
Download free trial versions
New version of popular arcade game 'Bubbler'

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:19:02 GMT, gerryq@indigo.ie (Gerry Quinn)
wrote:

>To have a book-like story in a game will require changing the nature of
>the game to a much more linear and railroaded style than most players
>will be prepared to accept. There's nothing wrong with that - but you
>have to accept that the more story you include, the more non-linearity
>you have to dump.

Final Fantasy 10 and Silent Hill 3 are both up there with the very
best of literature and movies in terms of story; but yes, apart from
FF10's side-quests, they're both fairly linear games; you're probably
right about the strong nonlinearity of a game like Elite being
incompatible with a great story.

--
"Sore wa himitsu desu."
To reply by email, remove
the small snack from address.
http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace

"Gerry Quinn" <gerryq@indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:tKKYa.26456$pK2.41757@news.indigo.ie...
> In article <3PidnTM5krBulK6iXTWJkg@comcast.com>, "Joe M."
<NoEmail4Joe@spamfree.com> wrote:
> >While I believe great game programmers are by definition creative I think
> >it's important to be very specific in the different types of creativity
> >(they cannot be masters of ALL the types of creativity needed to make a
> >truly great game). I've yet to play a game that has the same brilliance
of
> >an excellent book or film for example. Most games offer stories with
weak
> >dialogue and predictable plots. There is very little evidence of
creative
> >genius on the story side in gaming.
>
> It's idiotic to look for story of this order, because in a game the
> player has a huge input into creating the story. It must therefore be
> expected that the creativity in the story sphere will be of a very
> 'ordinary' nature.
>

It should have been obvious to you (the "for example" phrase being the key
clue) that the main crux of my post was NOT about the quality of game
stories; it was about the SCOPE of human creative talent and how labeling
programmers as "creative by definition" is overly broad (their lack of story
skill is one example of this limited creative talent). Perhaps you missed
this because you were too busy calling me idiotic? Try to keep up.

--
Joe M.

Gerry Quinn wrote:

> To have a book-like story in a game will require changing the nature of
> the game to a much more linear and railroaded style than most players
> will be prepared to accept.

Metal Gear Solid, "the best game ever" by many reports when it
came out, was exactly this way.

Long non-interactive sequences with a few places where you could
"control" the action.


-tom!

In article <8Z6cnTwTX4dm-6miXTWJiQ@comcast.com>, "Joe M." <NoEmail4Joe@spamfree.com> wrote:
>
>"Gerry Quinn" <gerryq@indigo.ie> wrote in message
>news:tKKYa.26456$pK2.41757@news.indigo.ie...
>> In article <3PidnTM5krBulK6iXTWJkg@comcast.com>, "Joe M."
><NoEmail4Joe@spamfree.com> wrote:
>> >While I believe great game programmers are by definition creative I think
>> >it's important to be very specific in the different types of creativity
>> >(they cannot be masters of ALL the types of creativity needed to make a
>> >truly great game). I've yet to play a game that has the same brilliance
>of
>> >an excellent book or film for example. Most games offer stories with
>weak
>> >dialogue and predictable plots. There is very little evidence of
>creative
>> >genius on the story side in gaming.
>>
>> It's idiotic to look for story of this order, because in a game the
>> player has a huge input into creating the story. It must therefore be
>> expected that the creativity in the story sphere will be of a very
>> 'ordinary' nature.
>
>It should have been obvious to you (the "for example" phrase being the key
>clue) that the main crux of my post was NOT about the quality of game
>stories; it was about the SCOPE of human creative talent and how labeling
>programmers as "creative by definition" is overly broad (their lack of story
>skill is one example of this limited creative talent). Perhaps you missed
>this because you were too busy calling me idiotic? Try to keep up.

You claimed that game developers lacked story skills, and that the
absence of 'brilliant' story in games proves this. I pointed out that
games as an art form to not have the capacity to prohject the kind of
story you are talking about. It follows that the absence of such story
cannot demonstrate this incapacity on the part of game designers.

You might as well argue that since paintings never sound very
interesting, painters must lack musical skill. They might or might not,
but the absence of music in their paintings is not evidence for it.

For the record, I think programers are probably less creative in some
areas than the average, but that programming ability does not rule out
any particular kind of creativity.

Don't you understand that game plots NEED to be predictable, because
otherwise players will be punished for playing well and rewarded for
playing badly? Games are not novels, and they have different rules.

Gerry Quinn
--
http://bindweed.com
Screensavers and Games for Windows
Download free trial versions
New version of popular arcade game 'Bubbler'

In article <q209jvg5lhj4atrisr0gem7cmgpi0j26j9@4ax.com>, Tom Plunket <tomas@fancy.org> wrote:
>Gerry Quinn wrote:
>
>> To have a book-like story in a game will require changing the nature of
>> the game to a much more linear and railroaded style than most players
>> will be prepared to accept.
>
>Metal Gear Solid, "the best game ever" by many reports when it
>came out, was exactly this way.
>
>Long non-interactive sequences with a few places where you could
>"control" the action.

I never played it so I can't comment. Maybe some games in that style
can work.

Gerry Quinn
--
http://bindweed.com
Screensavers and Games for Windows
Download free trial versions
New version of popular arcade game 'Bubbler'

Gerry Quinn wrote:

> You might as well argue that since paintings never sound very
> interesting, painters must lack musical skill. They might or might not,
> but the absence of music in their paintings is not evidence for it.
>
> For the record, I think programers are probably less creative in some
> areas than the average, but that programming ability does not rule out
> any particular kind of creativity.

Incidentally, many programmers have an affinity for making music
or painting or some other artistic endeavor. I would hazard a
guess that the most successful of programmers have a "creative"
thing that they can do (not counting "programming" as creative
because ... many reasons). My experience would indicate that
this is pretty much a rule; take all of the programmers I know,
sort them by musical ability, and you've also got a pretty good
sort by their coding ability.

-tom!

"Tom Plunket" <tomas@fancy.org> wrote in message
>
> My experience would indicate that this is pretty much a rule; take all of
> the programmers I know, sort them by musical ability, and you've also
> got a pretty good sort by their coding ability.
>
When I was at school the music master sorted us into three rows, the best
pupils in front, the medium ones in the middle, and the worst on the back.
As the year progressed, those on the lower two rows were gradually invited
to move forwards. Eventually by the end there were two boys left on the back
row - a boy called Michael Churchman and guess who?

Let's hope your observed correlation is a chance phenomenon.

Chris Woods wrote:

> > Incidentally, many programmers have an affinity for making music
> > or painting or some other artistic endeavor. I would hazard a
> > guess...
>
> I think what you're trying to discover is a correlation between
> coding and math ability, not coding and music.

Perhaps. It's clear that those that I know as programmers and
musicians approach making music in a much more methodical and
technical fashion than those who are not programmers. What would
people think in expanding my statement to include any creative
endeavors? Would a person make a better programmer if she
learned how to paint or wrote a novel or learned how to surf?

> However, I think it's way to bold to say that coding correlates
> with music skill, as my experience is 100% contrary to yours.

Ok, I shall not suggest it again. However, I do wish to
leave you all with this:

http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html


-tom!