PS2 vs PC Vice City?

"Anders Albrechtsen" <anders@herlevkollegiet.dk> wrote in message
news:BHEJa.28503$Jp3.1285965@news010.worldonline.d k...
> The truth (IMO) is somewhere between you and the Xbxo owner. The PC
version
> definitely looks better. However the PS2 version supports DTS surround
sound
> which sounds which sounds better than the PC versions rather disappointing
> EAX implementation.

Maybe your PC speakers just suck? I have a pair of Monsoon Planar 9
speakers with a subwoofer and they produce better sound than many 5.1 home
theater setups I have heard.

DirectSound 3D is just a sound-positioning API that works with any number
of speakers or headphones, at it's up to the soundcard to actually render
the sound positioning and effects. You can get vastly different results
depending on your soundcard. Currently, the best engine out there on PC is
made by Sensaura, used in Turtle Beach and Hercules soundcards, but Audigy 2
is also good. The worst I have heard is QSound's 2 speaker algorithm, which
produces very ambiguous rear positioning.

"magnulus" <magnulus@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:0W_Ka.1155$XE4.337@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> "Anders Albrechtsen" <anders@herlevkollegiet.dk> wrote in message
> news:BHEJa.28503$Jp3.1285965@news010.worldonline.d k...
> > The truth (IMO) is somewhere between you and the Xbxo owner. The PC
> version
> > definitely looks better. However the PS2 version supports DTS surround
> sound
> > which sounds which sounds better than the PC versions rather
disappointing
> > EAX implementation.
>
> Maybe your PC speakers just suck? I have a pair of Monsoon Planar 9
> speakers with a subwoofer and they produce better sound than many 5.1 home
> theater setups I have heard.

I have an Audigy2 and a set of Logitech Z-680 5.1 THX speakers and I still
think EAX sucks in Vice City. There's very little (if any) use of reverb and
most sound sources do not have a clear directional part. In the PS2 version
with DTS Interactive enabled panning is smooth and the directional path to
sound sources usually crystal clear.

> DirectSound 3D is just a sound-positioning API that works with any
number
> of speakers or headphones, at it's up to the soundcard to actually render
> the sound positioning and effects.

I know. EAX is just an extension of DS3D which provides reverb, occlusion
flitering, early reflections etc. But the fact is that both EAX _and_ DS3D
suck in Vice City while DTS Interactive in the PS2 version is excellent.

> You can get vastly different results
> depending on your soundcard. Currently, the best engine out there on PC
is
> made by Sensaura, used in Turtle Beach and Hercules soundcards, but Audigy
2
> is also good. The worst I have heard is QSound's 2 speaker algorithm,
which
> produces very ambiguous rear positioning.

Sensaura has an edge with respect to 3D sound through stereo speakers onmly.
Creative and Qsound are just as good with 4.1 and 5.1 setups. Sensaura has
slightly better side positioning while Creative (and to alesser extent
Qsound) has clearer front-rear placement. Headphones support is an even
match up between Creative and Sensaura while Qsound falls hopelessly
behind.. Sensaura is probably more balanced and has slightly more distinct
above-below cues while Creative has clearer front-rear positioning. In the
end I prefer Creative because it is generally offers better compatability..

Back to the subject, Vice City's EAX implementation just suck. Good EAX
implementions in recent games include Vietcong, Raven Shield, Splinter Cell
and UT 2003 (with the latest patch).
---
Anders

"Anders Albrechtsen" <nyrupisthebest@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1s3La.189$Kb2.25012@news010.worldonline.dk...
> I have an Audigy2 and a set of Logitech Z-680 5.1 THX speakers and I still
> think EAX sucks in Vice City. There's very little (if any) use of reverb
and
> most sound sources do not have a clear directional part. In the PS2
version
> with DTS Interactive enabled panning is smooth and the directional path to
> sound sources usually crystal clear.
>

I'm using a Hercules Digifire (Sensaura) along with those Planar 9's (2.1
speakers), and I think the sound positioning in Vice City is remarkable.
Granted, Vice City isn't really a game that showcases positional audio well,
but rear positioning is excellent, especially for cars.

I haven't actually heard the PS2's DTS, so maybe it does sound good, but
that doesn't mean the PC's positional audio is necessarily bad.

> I know. EAX is just an extension of DS3D which provides reverb, occlusion
> flitering, early reflections etc. But the fact is that both EAX _and_
DS3D
> suck in Vice City while DTS Interactive in the PS2 version is excellent.
>

I'm not a big reverb freak. I used to have a Soundblaster Live and it had
over the top reverb that I liked. I got my Digifire a year ago and it has a
subtle EAX implementation that grew on my to the point I can see it's more
realistic.

The EAX in Vice City is fine, it's alot more clever than many other games
which just use one preset- the EAX setting is actually dynamicly generated
based on the surrounding buildings. You can also turn on environment
reflections, but I preffer to leave them off.

What really bugs me are games like Battlefield 1942, where the sound in
general is crap... crackling audio being the biggest flaw. The designers
also took big shortcuts with the audio- the gunshots are just stereo sounds
so there isn't any 3D positioning at all, and this is most evident if you
are playing the game with headphones. Oh... and there's NO EAX at all...
just very cheesy canned reverb recorded with all the audio files.

>
> Sensaura has an edge with respect to 3D sound through stereo speakers
onmly.
> Creative and Qsound are just as good with 4.1 and 5.1 setups.

But if you get some good speakers and a decent soundcard, you don't really
need the 5.1 setups. Alot of computers are not conveniently located for a
5.1 setup. I had an inexpensive 5.1 going with a Qsound card, and it
sounded OK, but it made my room look terrible and the rear positioning
never really blended well with the front (side-rear sounds didn't sound as
good).

Even my PS2 doesn't have a 5.1 setup, just two multimedia speakers hooked
up to a TV. At most I have a Sennheiser Prologic headphone gadget, which I
use in the evenings or when watching movies, or the rare game that has
Prologic support (Medal of Honor).

"magnulus" <magnulus@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:h44La.2117$kx.1506@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> "Anders Albrechtsen" <nyrupisthebest@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1s3La.189$Kb2.25012@news010.worldonline.dk...
> > I have an Audigy2 and a set of Logitech Z-680 5.1 THX speakers and I
still
> > think EAX sucks in Vice City. There's very little (if any) use of reverb
> and
> > most sound sources do not have a clear directional part. In the PS2
> version
> > with DTS Interactive enabled panning is smooth and the directional path
to
> > sound sources usually crystal clear.
> >
>
> I'm using a Hercules Digifire (Sensaura) along with those Planar 9's
(2.1
> speakers), and I think the sound positioning in Vice City is remarkable.
> Granted, Vice City isn't really a game that showcases positional audio
well,
> but rear positioning is excellent, especially for cars.

You need a surround sound setup (4.1/5.1+) to notice what I'm talking about.

> I haven't actually heard the PS2's DTS, so maybe it does sound good, but
> that doesn't mean the PC's positional audio is necessarily bad.

I have both versions. Compared to other PC games that use positional audio
Vice City is a joke. I hate to say it since I really love the game. If you
want to hear excellent positional audio try games such as UT 2003, Splinter
Cell or Raven Shield.

> > I know. EAX is just an extension of DS3D which provides reverb,
occlusion
> > flitering, early reflections etc. But the fact is that both EAX _and_
> DS3D
> > suck in Vice City while DTS Interactive in the PS2 version is excellent.
> >
>
> I'm not a big reverb freak. I used to have a Soundblaster Live and it
had
> over the top reverb that I liked. I got my Digifire a year ago and it has
a
> subtle EAX implementation that grew on my to the point I can see it's more
> realistic.

You can actually reduce reverb strength on Creative cards if you find it too
prominent. You cannot increase reverb strength on Sensaura cards if you find
it too weak. This is one of the reasons why I think Sensaura is inferior to
Creative when it comes to EAX. In the end it is a matter of preference, but
IMO it is an indisputable fact that Creative's reverb engine is by far the
best and most realistic engine on the market today.

> The EAX in Vice City is fine, it's alot more clever than many other
games
> which just use one preset- the EAX setting is actually dynamicly generated
> based on the surrounding buildings. You can also turn on environment
> reflections, but I preffer to leave them off.

I don't think it works very well to be honest. Most sounds except cars do
not seem to have a direct path at least not through my 5.1 speakers.
Headphones seem to work better for some reason. Also environment reflections
(dynamic acoustic modelling) won't work 100% correct with your soundcard
since it requires EAX 3.0 (Audigy 1/2)

> What really bugs me are games like Battlefield 1942, where the sound in
> general is crap... crackling audio being the biggest flaw. The designers
> also took big shortcuts with the audio- the gunshots are just stereo
sounds
> so there isn't any 3D positioning at all, and this is most evident if you
> are playing the game with headphones. Oh... and there's NO EAX at all...
> just very cheesy canned reverb recorded with all the audio files.

You're correct, BF 1942 does not support EAX. However this game has
absolutely awesome postional audio, but you really need to use a pair of
headphones or a 4.1/5.1 speaker set to get the full benefit. When I play MP
team battles I can pinpoint the exact loaction of every enemy when he opens
fire and the doppler effect when an AT rocket flies right by you is
fantastic!

> > Sensaura has an edge with respect to 3D sound through stereo speakers
> onmly.
> > Creative and Qsound are just as good with 4.1 and 5.1 setups.
>
> But if you get some good speakers and a decent soundcard, you don't
really
> need the 5.1 setups. Alot of computers are not conveniently located for a

> 5.1 setup. I had an inexpensive 5.1 going with a Qsound card, and it
> sounded OK, but it made my room look terrible and the rear positioning
> never really blended well with the front (side-rear sounds didn't sound as
> good).
>

You need to position the speakers so that the volume is evenly matched. In
your case I'd recommend that you use a poair of headphones instead of your
2.1 speakers when you play games. You get much more accurate 3D sound and it
makes it much easier to pinpoint sound sources from above or below.

> Even my PS2 doesn't have a 5.1 setup, just two multimedia speakers
hooked
> up to a TV. At most I have a Sennheiser Prologic headphone gadget, which
I
> use in the evenings or when watching movies, or the rare game that has
> Prologic support (Medal of Honor).

I use my Logitech Z-680 speakers with my PS2 as well via optical SPDIF
connection. It has a built in DTS, Dolby Digital and Dolby Surround Pro
Logic II decoder which enables great use of 5.1 surround sound in games that
use these technologies.
---
Anders

"Anders Albrechtsen" <nyrupisthebest@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2l6La.202$Kb2.32662@news010.worldonline.dk...
> You need a surround sound setup (4.1/5.1+) to notice what I'm talking
about.
>

You don't need more than 2 speakers or headphones to hear 3D sound...
Remember, 3D sound is based on psychoacoustics... an aural illusion using 2
or more speakers. The only advantage of using more than 2 speakers, is that
the reliance on psychoacoustics will be lessened, and if you are the type
that has an atypical ear or head shape or size, it could be beneficial to
use several speakers in place of two.

... or are you refering to a problem with a surround-sound setup
specificly?

> I have both versions. Compared to other PC games that use positional audio
> Vice City is a joke. I hate to say it since I really love the game. If you
> want to hear excellent positional audio try games such as UT 2003,
Splinter
> Cell or Raven Shield.
>

To my ears, they all sound about equal in terms of the positioning of
sound- none stand out more than the next one. Again, positional audio comes
down to your soundcard, and usually not the game. Reverb and effects are a
seperate task from the positioning of the sound. Some games will have
better use of reverb that others, because reverb is something designers have
alot of control over, whereas with positioning, they can only make
generalized instructions for the soundcard.


>
> You can actually reduce reverb strength on Creative cards if you find it
too
> prominent. You cannot increase reverb strength on Sensaura cards if you
find
> it too weak. This is one of the reasons why I think Sensaura is inferior
to
> Creative when it comes to EAX. In the end it is a matter of preference,
but
> IMO it is an indisputable fact that Creative's reverb engine is by far the
> best and most realistic engine on the market today.

Sensaura's cards actually position the early reflections, whereas on
Creative cards (with the exception of the Audigy in an EAX HD game), the
reflections are in the middle of the soundfield. Sensaura also uses a more
chaotic wave pattern to produce reverb, which tends to subdue the overall
effect. In short, they are different philosophies. Creative is aiming for
a clear effect that you can notice alot (so you know you got your money's
worth? Creative did, after all, invent EAX), whereas Sensaura is aiming for
a realistic effect that you may not notice.. the primary emphasis is on
accurate 3D positioning (which also includes features like Zoom-FX, features
that Creative card's, to my knowledge, don't have).

> I don't think it works very well to be honest. Most sounds except cars do
> not seem to have a direct path at least not through my 5.1 speakers.
> Headphones seem to work better for some reason. Also environment
reflections
> (dynamic acoustic modelling) won't work 100% correct with your soundcard
> since it requires EAX 3.0 (Audigy 1/2)
>

Dynamic acoustic modelling is done in software (at least it was in GTA3),
and it works, but I find the effect "over the top", and I don't use it. I'm
not sure about Vice City... I haven't seen that option.

If your headphones work alot better than your 5.1 speakers, I would think
you need to check your speaker positions. The cross-talk the soundcard
engine uses is setup so that it sounds best at a certain angle to your head.
I found a pentagon or circular shape works best for games- the usual home
theater setup doesn't work as well and produces blurred positioning- this is
fine for watching movies, where a diffuse soundfield is usually desireable
(especially for the surround channels), but inadequate for games.
Headphones should have a slight advantage in rear positioning over speakers,
but it should not be a big difference.... also headphones don't always have
the forward placement that a set of speakers do- sometimes the effect is too
"phantom" and not real enough.

>
> You need to position the speakers so that the volume is evenly matched. In
> your case I'd recommend that you use a poair of headphones instead of your
> 2.1 speakers when you play games. You get much more accurate 3D sound and
it
> makes it much easier to pinpoint sound sources from above or below.
>

Sensaura has very good 2 speaker algorithms right out of the box- in fact
most reviewers have found them the best next to the (now dead) Aureal. I've
done tests and the 2 speaker is just as good as the headphones (Ziff Davis
Audio Winbench 99 is good for this). Up and down positions are going to be
difficulty on any setup, although headphones will be slightly better. On
the other hand, most games don't make heavy use of elevation differences.

With headphones you lose alot of bass, and I have yet to find a good pair
that are comfortable to wear for very long periods of time, so that's part
of my prefference for speakers. The sound is just more real, you can feel
it with your whole body... and there's nothing pinching my glasses.